lierdumoa: (*poke*)
[personal profile] lierdumoa
Meta and navel gazing.

I'll go briefly into my short history of my experience with genderbending fic. I encountered it in a number of fandoms, but the fic that really made me like the idea of genderbending and made me want to play with the idea myself was Saiyuki fic. In a nutshell, we have the character Gojyo, who is kind of a ho, good looking, and has issues that he drowns them in sex, and as a girl he'd, well, he'd be Shane from L Word. We also have the character Sanzo, who's so beautiful he spent his whole life being mistaken for female and looked at like a piece of meat and raging at the world because why should he have to go through this? Other guys don't have to go through this. Sanzo is actually less fucked up as a girl than he is as a boy.

He'd be less fucked up, and he'd probaby have more sex.

Conclusion: genderbending = shiny happy place of joy and non-fucked-up-ness and porn, and then more porn.

Which brings me to my SGA fic. There are a number of reasons I chose Rodney to turn into a woman for my fic, but mainly they all boil down to him being the candidate who could provide the largest amount of porn with the smallest amount of angst. Rodney is forced into extremely uncomfortable/outrageous/surreal/terrifying situations on a nearly constant basis, and while he may get extremely (hilariously) vocally upset, he's not likely to have a breakdown. And he doesn't get laid too often, so given the opportunity, he's not likely to say no.

What terrifies Rodney most is a loss of control and a female body, while unfamiliar, is still relatively under his control. Rodney is apparently hypoglycemic, or at least enough of a hypochondriac that he thinks he is, so it's not like fluctuating body chemistry is a new and horrible thing to him. The period would not be that big of a deal. Additionally, Rodney is far too convinced of his own genius to doubt for more than a minute that he'd be able to turn himself back the way he was, assuming he had access to the technology that switched his gender in the first place.

When I wrote about Rodney looking at himself in the mirror, I wrote it keeping in mind that as far as Rodney was concerned, this was not his body. He was not looking at it as if it were his body. He was looking at it like, "Hey, there's a naked woman in the mirror. I would totally do her." Because Rodney as a girl is hot and even if she weren't, Rodney (as previously mentioned) doesn't get laid too often. His standards are not that high. And, really Rodney's appearance just is not a big deal to him. All of his self-confidence is buried in his intelligence. He's certainly not going to worry about his looks in a body that isn't even his.

Of course, certain things would freak him out, and he would throw random tantrums, as he does, and he would get over them pretty quickly, as he does, and that's why we love Rodney. He never ceases to entertain. He doesn't take shit from anyone on anything ever, so he's not likely to curl in on himself if people say not nice things about him. He's more likely to extremely (hilariously) vocally bitch them out.

I had a few people give me feedback for the first part of my fic saying they loved how my Rodney was still the same after he changed genders, which confused me until I twigged to the fact that people think of the term girl!Rodney in this fandom much the same way people think of the term sexgod!Draco in HP. Which is to say, girl!Rodney is thought of as a persona with Rodney's face, rather than an actual experiment in how Rodney McKay would act if he were turned into a woman under a particular set of circumstances.


I did not choose to turn John into a woman because I know if I tried to write John as a woman, the fic would end up focusing on angst, rather than porn, and a type of angst I am not particularly good with.

There are a lot of aspects of John's personality that strike me as stereotypically female. When he is having an argument he is more likely to use passive aggression than active aggression. He often relies on his charm and his looks to get people's attention with overt flirting. He argues by appealing to people's emotions rather than to their logic. He has maternal instincts like whoa. This is interesting to me because at the same time, John Sheppard does not come across as feminine at all. He is all of these things and he is still very much a guy. He defies stereotypes without requiring some sort of justification for doing so -- we simply accept him for who he is.

The fact that he's scorchingly hot doesn't hurt.

But take, for example, the way he shows his intelligence, or rather, doesn't show it. He's incredibly smart, but he hides behind a dumb jock facade. He acts this way (I assume) because he is military and his motivation is to fit in with the rest of the military. If a woman introduced herself by saying, "I like football and ferris wheels" we'd be calling her a ditz. If a woman were hiding her intelligence, we would assume her motivation was not to fit in with the jocks, but rather to avoid intimidating them.

If John were a woman, fandom would make assumptions about him that we don't make because he is not a woman. Or rather, the fandom would conclude that the writers were making assumptions about "women in general" in writing John. Offensive assumptions. The fact that John is a man is, well, interesting. I honestly believe John is the product of a bunch of male geeks getting in a room and trying to envision the perfect man and, being heterosexual, instead envisioning the perfect woman and then giving her a cock. I'd call it subversive if I weren't so sure the writers were doing it completely on accident.

I mean, think about it. If it were on purpose? So subversive.

Really, I don't care why John is the way he is. I don't think about that when I'm writing fic about him. I just enjoy him for being an interesting, three dimensional character with his own set of issues, etc.

However, if I were to turn John into a woman in a fic, I would inevitably reach the point where he tried to go on an offworld mission and use his usual negotiating methods and whomever he was negotiating with would most likely not take him seriously at all because he'd be the "hot ditzy chick carrying an incongruously big gun" and that's just really depressing. That's why Kristen Kreuk hates playing Lana Lang on Smallville. Whatever depth her character might have goes unexplored on the show, and she ends up being nothing more than a pin-up. If John got turned into a woman, it really would be kind of traumatizing for him because at some point he'd have an epiphany.

He'd have an epiphany about who he is, about the way the the military and men in power treat women, about his personality in a woman's body, and that epiphany would hurt. It would be the equivalent of the teenaged boy standing in the gym showers in his midwestern school thinking, "Crap, I'm a fag" (which, as we all know, John also had to go through) and I ... I can't hurt him like that. It breaks my brain a little.

And it completely messes with my whole concept of genderbending as a shiny happy place of joy and non-fucked-up-ness and porn, and then more porn.

Reading genderbending fic in this fandom, for me, anyway, is kind of like that one beer commercial. I think it was Millers. You know, the one that goes like:

Guy 1: I love this beer!
Guy 2: Hey, me too!
Guy 1: Yes, the taste is great.
Guy 2: I like the smoothness.
Guy 1: ... but, the taste.
Guy 2: ... no, the smoothness.
Guy 1: ... ?
Guy 2: ... ???


In other news, still have 500 wds to go on pt. 2 of the fic. Should get back to that.

Date: 2005-11-01 07:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] justabi.livejournal.com
Yep. That's it exactly. John is like Starbuck on Battlestar Galactica, only in reverse. Which I totally dig.

Date: 2005-11-07 09:59 am (UTC)

Date: 2005-11-12 09:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lierdumoa.livejournal.com
http://www.livejournal.com/users/sisabet/314310.html?thread=4520390#t4520390

Date: 2005-11-01 07:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kickthebeat.livejournal.com
word word word. I'm glad you posted this, chickie, I think it is tasty and delicious (and also pretty brill).

Date: 2005-11-01 08:03 pm (UTC)
aurora: (Default)
From: [personal profile] aurora
*saves to memories*, because you're spot-on about this.

Date: 2005-11-12 09:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lierdumoa.livejournal.com
Cool! I'm in somebody's memories!

=D

Date: 2005-11-01 08:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] grey-bard.livejournal.com
To be fair, I know that my amazement that Rodney as a girl stayed in character came - not from a belief that he theoretically wouldn't - but rather from the unhappy experience that frequently in genderbender fic, characters don't.

Often the writer takes the option that biology is destiny, and has the character discover all kinds of personality changes with the introduction of new hormones. I am glad that you did not.

Date: 2005-11-12 09:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lierdumoa.livejournal.com
I think I find the biology as destiny thing particularly disturbing because I've never been stereotypically girly, and I've never been accused of being stereotypically boyish either and it just makes no sense in my head that changing gender would automatically dictate a change in thinking.

I'm glad you're liking the fic! Next part will be going up soon.

:)

Date: 2005-11-01 08:24 pm (UTC)
wychwood: Rodney has opinions (SGA - Rodney opinions)
From: [personal profile] wychwood
That's really interesting, what you say. I hadn't thought about John-as-girl much - even after what you said about him being the "dream woman". And you're spot-on about the angst, too. But then, John is often about the angst :)

On the other hand, I'd had similar thoughts about the female-ness of Rodney - in that, as a woman, he would be a psycho-bitch drama queen who whined like a girl all the time. Naturally, this is because he is a psycho-bitch drama queen who whines like a girl all the time - but as a female, he would fit another unpleasant stereotype. On the other hand, your observations are also accurate, and I'm enjoying the fic :)

Date: 2005-11-02 10:36 am (UTC)
wychwood: Rodney is excited (even if he doesn't look it) (SGA - Rodney excited)
From: [personal profile] wychwood
Ooh, and I just had a thought - what I was thinking about wasn't actually genderswitching in this sense. I was thinking how cool it would be to take a series idea, and cross-cast all the characters. For means of playing with stereotypes and assumptions, and pointing out the male-domination of most casts. And I decided that you could cross-cast all the main characters on Atlantis (and some of that would be really interesting :)) but Rodney would be a really bad stereotype if you cast him as female.

However, in your gender*switch* scenario, that's not really relevant. Because the response he gets from strangers probably won't change much (mildly amused contempt, mostly, isn't it?) and his colleagues are used to that. So he won't get the difference in response that girl!John would. I think.

Date: 2005-11-12 10:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lierdumoa.livejournal.com
I have a friend who keeps talking about doing that with Firefly, and how she would switch everyone but River, because then it would be Simon, the brilliant, softspoken older sister giving up her career and her future to save her mystical Jesus figure little brother and my friend just couldn't go there. Sci-fi/fantasty tv has way to many mystical male saviors, and thank God Joss Whedon understood that when he created the Firefly characters.

But I do find the idea of transforming whole casts to be fascinating. My friend was also talking about how a female Rodney (not a genderswitched, but an actual female Rodney) should be played by Margaret Cho, which I *love.*

=D

Date: 2005-11-12 09:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lierdumoa.livejournal.com
Heeeee, yes. Rodney is such a drama queen. Though Rodney, for some reason, strikes me more as a non-ideal man, or even just a non-ideal personality in general, whereas John strikes me as an idealized woman in a man's body.

I'm glad you're enjoying the fic!

Date: 2005-11-01 09:23 pm (UTC)
permetaform: (::seagulls:: [kuwdora])
From: [personal profile] permetaform
Yay! you posted this!

Also, keyword for this icon is 'seagulls'. =D

Date: 2005-11-08 10:51 am (UTC)
permetaform: (::rodneyvision:: [mine])
From: [personal profile] permetaform
holy shit, realized something:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/permetaform/311477.html

It might or might not indicate that the writers knew *exactly* what they were doing with John Sheppard...

Date: 2005-11-01 09:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] turtlespeaks.livejournal.com
that was just and amazing introspective look at John's character. Bravo. But I have to ask, though John displays all these female qualities, he also displays a lot of male qualities as well, in the way he conducts himself and (sometimes) in the way that he treats Elizabeth, i.e. Must protect. Grrrr argh! How do you think these dueling qualities effect his overall character? I'd be interested to know. (and if that makes no sense, I'm sorry, I'm going on sugar and will right now, my brain hurts.)

Also, how does Rodney's character and his friendship reflect and compliment these qualities in John, since he seems to be a bit more male in his qualities?

. . . I should probably go to class.

Date: 2005-11-12 10:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lierdumoa.livejournal.com
I never found his protective instincts particularly mascuine qualities. There are different ways to be protective, and his way strikes me very much as motherly in nature, particularly when he says lines like "don't scare me like that" in "The Siege III" and, to Ford in "Lost Boys," "You don't have to prove anything to anybody, Lieutenant" with a tone of voice as if he were reassuring a small child. Similarly, most of his agression does not strike me as stereotypical masculine agression because I find the motives behind his agression to still be stereotypically feminine. So to answer your question, these don't really strike me as duelling qualities.

Of course, I can't argue conclusively one way or the other, but my general impression of John is of a generally stereotypically female personality in a male body.

I couldn't really say how Rodney helps bounce off these qualities, though it's an interesting question you bring up. I know I like the two of them together because they feel like the two halves of my own brain. I haven't really looked at their relationship from a gendered angle before.

Hee! And yes! Don't let all your time get sucked away on LJ.

:P

Date: 2005-11-01 10:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] surreul.livejournal.com
yessss. facinating analysis of John.

I was just recently thinking about John's aproach to power for a fic I'm writing and how it is a lot more female then male (or maybe more the kind of power that females would prefer to weild) but without making him any less male. The way he gets Ronon to stay? And that scene in Aurora where he's all 'I'd be so grateful *bats eyelashes*' at the first mate/wraith before he knows she's a wraith, just to name a few examples.

it's very cool, especially since it's mostly effective

Date: 2005-11-12 10:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lierdumoa.livejournal.com
Heh heh heh. John is constitutionally incapable of not flirting. Oh god, and the scene when he's leaning on the punching dummy, watching Ronon fight, with his hip cocked, like the sexiest male cheerleader EVAR.

<3

Date: 2005-11-01 10:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] iibnf.livejournal.com
I think, if Rodney turns out to be the kind of woman who gets PMS, OTHER people will bleed.

Poor Kavanaugh.

Date: 2005-11-12 10:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lierdumoa.livejournal.com
Ahahaha! So much yes. And he would probably blame his bitchy moods on PMS whether it was at fault or not.

Poor Kavanagh indeed.

XD

Date: 2005-11-02 12:59 am (UTC)
ext_1771: Joe Flanigan looking A-Dorable. (happynow? - sga)
From: [identity profile] monanotlisa.livejournal.com
Fascinating thoughts that rang very true; thanks for sharing!

There are a lot of aspects of John's personality that strike me as stereotypically female [...] without requiring some sort of justification for doing so

Spot-on.

I honestly believe John is the product of a bunch of male geeks getting in a room and trying to envision the perfect man and, being heterosexual, instead envisioning the perfect woman and then giving her a cock. I'd call it subversive if I weren't so sure the writers were doing it completely on accident.

Hah. I love that -- and yes, you may very well be onto something there...

Really like your conclusion that a genderswitched John would come to very painful, very personal conclusions about the world he lives in; a few of the stories I collected in my post actually touch upon this issue, if none of them in -depth, of course -- they aren't really drama pieces.

Can't wait for more. & :-)

Date: 2005-11-12 10:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lierdumoa.livejournal.com
I think it was [livejournal.com profile] permetaform who pointed out in a recent meta post -- what's so potentially subversive about John is that it's like having a female lead, but without all of the kneejerk reactions people have to a leading female character on a show. John doesn't have to prove anything to anybody. I love that.

:)

Date: 2005-11-12 11:37 pm (UTC)
ext_1771: Joe Flanigan looking A-Dorable. (electric girl - fs)
From: [identity profile] monanotlisa.livejournal.com
all of the kneejerk reactions people have to a leading female character on a show

Gah, tell me about it. I'm still recovering from certain responses of certain people to both Buffy and Sydney Bristow; the former baffle and anger me on a fundamental level.

John is that it's like having a female lead

Just a few hours ago I was talking to an ljfriend from the US who visited me in my home city here in Germany -- we discussed female TV characters and fannish reactions. Now, although I've always adored AtS and am now in love with SGA, my fave shows tend to have female leads -- BtVS, Alias, VM, Farscape, arguably The X-Files -- so this is an intriguing theory.

[livejournal.com profile] d_irge was (tangentially, as she was contrasting them with a character she likes a lot, Cameron on House...also Cameron on House, in fact) talking about the way these female lead characters are -- confident, proactive, holding their ground in any crisis without being stand-offish, in one word: gutsy. This certainly applies to John --

but [livejournal.com profile] permetaform's words in conjunction with [livejournal.com profile] d_irge's Cameron outline made me wonder: She's emotional, has issues that occasionally affect her competence in the workplace, harbours a visible crush on her boss, and avoids conflicts like the plague.

Dude -- I am TMIing you, but that sounds a lot more like me than any description of Aeryn Sun or even Buffy Summers ever could. I'm not saying all (or any) of the above items are inherently female characteristics, just that some fans are very quick to notice flaws like that, and take offence, for various reasons, not all of them based on the mere character on screen.

What I'm saying, in a somewhat long-winded fashion -- maybe it's the other way 'round? Maybe Buffy, Aeryn, Scully, Veronica, or Sydney, while feminine in key aspects, still come across as very male in all the "good" ways?

Of course, that would go well with John coming across as very female in all the good ways while still retaining masculine aspects deemed positive...

Date: 2005-11-02 03:50 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] crownglass39.livejournal.com
honestly believe John is the product of a bunch of male geeks getting in a room and trying to envision the perfect man and, being heterosexual, instead envisioning the perfect woman and then giving her a cock.

Wow! Seriously on to something here.

Oddly enough, I've read a lot (well a few very well written) fanfics that really push the idea of John's maternal instincts.
I wonder where that comes from and why I buy it so readily?
I genuinely intrigued by this.

Date: 2005-11-12 10:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lierdumoa.livejournal.com
Oddly enough, I've read a lot (well a few very well written) fanfics that really push the idea of John's maternal instincts.
I wonder where that comes from and why I buy it so readily?


Heeee! I think the place it's most noticeable is in, like, "Lost Boys" when he's talking to Ford and says, "You don't have to prove anything to anybody, Lieutenant," only the way he says it, it sounds like he should be saying 'baby' instead of 'Lieutenant.' The way he is protective of his team and of the people on Atlantis comes across very much as mama bear protecting her cubs. Not to say that it has to be interpreted that way, but it can be.

Date: 2005-11-03 06:29 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] porntestpilot.livejournal.com
I...kind of want to propose.

Date: 2005-11-12 10:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lierdumoa.livejournal.com
Awwww. ::is flattered::

Date: 2005-11-07 01:42 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] moxie-brown.livejournal.com
You are so smart. I want to hug you to my very female bosom (or Rodney's in your icon, because damn, girl is built).

And I can't wait for part 2!

Date: 2005-11-12 10:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lierdumoa.livejournal.com
Heeeeeee. Why thank you! And yes, Rodney has quite the rack on him, doesn't he?

Date: 2005-11-07 03:05 am (UTC)
ext_953: Gabriel casually leaning against a wall (Joe--Mellow)
From: [identity profile] toniabarone.livejournal.com
*blinks* Okay, I'm blind. Until you pointed it out, I never realized just how feminine John is. No, yer right, not looks (DAMN no) but in most of his behavior. Huh. Wow. *blinks* So that's why he twigs my gaydar. Certainly food fer thought.

Now, as at the moment I can't quite remember if I read yer fic or not, I'm gonna go catch that chap. *nods and waves* Ta.

Date: 2005-11-12 10:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lierdumoa.livejournal.com
Heee. Glad you found my post enlightening. Hope you enjoyed the chapter!

Date: 2005-11-07 04:01 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] the-green-sheep.livejournal.com
Wow. I love your idea of where John came from. Not to mention the rest of this post. I'm having a 'love your brain!' moment. :)

Date: 2005-11-12 10:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lierdumoa.livejournal.com
Yay for brain love! I should meta more often.

;-)

Date: 2005-11-07 05:46 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hinokumo.livejournal.com
Awesome meta on both Rodney and John. I especially like your descriptions of Rodney's no-nonsense personality. I really do think that even if he were to freak out, his brain would take over and it'd be back to science in no time.

He doesn't take shit from anyone on anything ever, so he's not likely to curl in on himself if people say not nice things about him. He's more likely to extremely (hilariously) vocally bitch them out.

::heartheart:: It's one of the reasons I love his character. It's so frustrating to meet people who actually hate him. They just don't understand because they're obviously not watching enough. *is speaking of her immediate family*

I honestly believe John is the product of a bunch of male geeks getting in a room and trying to envision the perfect man and, being heterosexual, instead envisioning the perfect woman and then giving her a cock.

OMG you are so right! LOL!! And I can't wait for more Girl!Rodney :D

Date: 2005-11-12 10:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lierdumoa.livejournal.com
People hate him?

::clings happily to my corner of fandom::

More girl Rodney is coming soon!

genderbender

Date: 2005-11-07 03:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] greyhat.livejournal.com
As a genderbender who has changed gender not once but twice, I *love* genderbending fic. I even enjoy the bad stuff, from time to time. Your Rodney was a breath of fresh air, though - wonderfully accurate, imo. (as opposed to La Femme Mckay, which I enjoyed even though it was kind of embarrassing.)

Re: genderbender

Date: 2005-11-12 10:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lierdumoa.livejournal.com
Heeee! I'm so glad you are enjoying the fic! I've written genderbending once before, though the fic never got finished or posted, in Saiyuki fandom, so this is kind of a new thing for me, in practice, at least.

omg I hate you right now

Date: 2005-11-08 01:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fashes.livejournal.com
he'd be Shane from L Word

All your pimping and espousing the porn bounced off of me like... like things that bounce. But you throw Shane in? *is tempted* I... fuck. Is it January yet? *pines*

I can see the place where girl!John is not the angsty picture you drew above, but I can just as easily see this place. The fag in the showers thing makes *sense*.

Was I one of the people who were all happy you had not changed Rodney? I'm so used to authors girlifying characters when they genderbend that I'm excited to see how well you've retained Rodney. "OMG YAY! It's Rodney!" and etc.

Re: omg I hate you right now

Date: 2005-11-12 10:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lierdumoa.livejournal.com
Gojyo:
http://pics.livejournal.com/permetaform/pic/0000g0gr
http://pics.livejournal.com/permetaform/pic/000qx0y8 (order is L-R Hakkai, Goku, Gojyo, Sanzo)
http://pics.livejournal.com/permetaform/pic/0000wch3
(Gojyo & Hakkai)

XD

Date: 2005-11-09 12:49 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fluffy-goddess.livejournal.com
I honestly believe John is the product of a bunch of male geeks getting in a room and trying to envision the perfect man and, being heterosexual, instead envisioning the perfect woman and then giving her a cock.
Best explanation of John *ever*.

Date: 2005-11-12 10:54 pm (UTC)

Date: 2005-11-29 10:41 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ceares.livejournal.com
Just coming here from permetaform's meta post. Really, really interesting. It's going to make me look at John in a whole new way.

I have to say though, I always thought part of his attitude, and part of his playing dumb was a 'pretty boy' thing. He can't hide the looks, but people are a lot more tolerant if you are pretty but dumb, or smart but unattractive. Both just pisses them off.

oh yeah

Date: 2006-03-24 07:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jssangel.livejournal.com
This is great meta -

You know, I never liked straight (heh) up gender-bending fic before SGA. The closest I came was reading body-swapping fic in the x-files - and although some of that kink was about figuring out the new mechanics, most of it was about the opportunity that it gave the characters to touch the body they had been lusting after while still maintaining the obstacles to intimacy that made the realtionship interesting.

There is something completely different in exploring what the sense of ownership over a new body that is still yours (the character's).

I like what you said about the way that Rodney's investment in his brain, and ongoing self-monitoring of medical issues, would mean that the body shift would just be a different kind of deal for him. Not a mind-bender, really, because it wouldn't affect his mind.

I also love and totally agree with the things you said about John - both the "accidentally subversive" stuff from the writers, and the way his sense of self would be seriously turned upside down by the way the world around him would treat him in his new form.

I think also, because John is in the military, and there is a huge degree of mandated physical fitness that's a basic part of his life, it's not just his scorching hotness that would make the transtion weird for him. There's also the reality of becoming realtively physically weaker, and of loosing parts of himself that he has concentrated on. (Not just his dick - although I am sure that that would be a thing too - rather things like the length of his stride when he runs, the ways his muscles have been shaped by crunches, the push-ups he does every morning....mmmm. John. Push Ups.

I can't wait to read your fic when it is done!

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