Meta: Elizabeth Weir in season 2
Jan. 30th, 2006 11:36 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
lierdumoaA conversation I had earlier this week got me thinking about the darker themes SGA has been exploring in season 2 and changes in character behavior, particularly Elizabeth Weir. This then got me thinking about her characterization in general.
Some less charitable fan opinions I've come across regarding Weir include 1) that she is badly written as a leader by writers whose only known examples of women in leadership positions were their kindergarten teachers, 2) that she is presented as merely competent at her job, putting her in poor contrast to her male counterparts, who are all excellent at their jobs, 3) corollary to both 1 and 2, that she simply hasn't shown enough talent as a leader or a diplomat to justify her having achieved the position of head of the Atlantis expedition.
I'm somewhat inclined to agree with 1 -- many of her lines, I think, could be better written. I'd be willing to argue with 2, but that's a subject for another post. As to 3, I don't care to debate whether Elizabeth is a good diplomat or leader. I will, however, argue that her skill as a diplomat or leader, on the whole, has very little bearing on her having achieved her position as head of the Atlantis expedition.
She doesn't need to be the best diplomat in two galaxies because she knows how to find advantages in the situation surrounding a debate, rather than the debate itself. She doesn't need to be the principal authority figure for every single person under her leadership because she knows how to delegate power. Where others would deal directly, she slides in through the back door. Elizabeth is not head of Atlantis for her outstanding performance as a diplomat and leader, but rather for her brilliance as a politician.
And she is a brilliant politician.
The first time Elizabeth's authority was seriously questioned was in 1x13 "Hot Zone." John directly disobeyed her order. She told him something to the effect of, "If you keep undermining my authority I won't be able to lead (and the whole expedition will fall apart—you don't want the expedition to fall apart, right?)" She then asked him for his promise that the incident would not be repeated.
Asking John for his promise the way one might ask for a favor didn't exactly put her in a position of power. But then, she knew John well enough to know that John doesn't respond well to shows of power, and that the best way to get him to go along with her was to appeal to his sense of empathy. Perhaps it may have sounded better to say, "If you do this again, your punishment will be very severe," but it wouldn't have been nearly as effective. As it was, John hasn't disobeyed her since.
The second time Elizabeth's authority was seriously questioned was in 1x20 "The Siege II." Colonel Everett waltzed into her city, disparaged her for "giving up" and starting the self-destruct sequence, and basically told her, "I going to fix this nasty wraith annoyance with my giant cock. All you civilians can go back to your knitting." Of course, Everett learned his lesson soon after.
As soon as the battle was over, Weir proceeded to pull every string at her disposal to ensure that John stayed on as military leader and Carson stayed on as head doctor, despite their being better qualified candidates in both fields. And while it would be easy to chalk these actions up to sentimentality on Elizabeth's part, one must take into account what this meant for the expedition.
Suffice it to say, Elizabeth did not go back to her knitting. In fact, she did everything in her power to ensure that no military hot shot from the SGC would ever waltz into her city and tell her how to run things ever again. Elizabeth was originally supposed to take General O'Neill's place at the SGC. They gave her Atlantis instead, her beautiful island in the sun, and by God, they weren't getting it back.
I noticed first in 2x13 "Critical Mass" (though it may have started earlier) that Ronon had begun showing up at the meetings among the leading members of the Atlantis expedition. Formerly these meetings were only attended by Elizabeth, John, Rodney and Teyla. I think it is safe to assume that as expedition leader, it was Elizabeth's decision to include Ronon in these executive meetings.
Which brings up the question -- why Ronon? Assuming Ronon isn't just there by fluke because the writers got lazy and wanted to find a way to further incorporate him into the show, Elizabeth must have had a reason for including him. Ford never attended these meetings in season 1 when he was the 4th member of John's team.
The most logical explanation I can think of is that Elizabeth wanted another military perspective when making executive decisions. She has far more military under her command than she did in season 1. She has regular contact with Caldwell and the SGC, thereby giving her the resources to go on the offensive with the wraith. Atlantis is no longer solely a civilian operation. It might have made sense for the next highest ranking military officer after John to have been in attendence, however I can see why she didn't choose, say, Major Lorne. Specifically, I'm recalling her conversation with him in 2x10 "Lost Boys" wherein he says in regards to Sheppard's team, "Oh, you know how those guys are, don't get too worried."
Of course, all Elizabeth had to do was raise an eyebrow for him to remember that failing to take John and herself seriously was a bad idea. Still, Ronon made for a better choice. He is a military specialist, intensely loyal to John and therefore to Elizabeth, and without any preconcieved notions regarding Elizabeth. He also knows how to think outside the SGC box.
I suppose I could be reaching here, but well, I've been giving the series the benefit of the doubt since I started watching and it hasn't disappointed me yet. Well, except with Miko. Self-effacing Asian female going, "filial piety yay! Yes large pompous white man, tell me how I may please you!"
...but that is a rant for another post.
Elizabeth has done everything in her power to preserve the spirit of the original expedition while at the same time transforming it into a viable line of defense against the Wraith. I do think she is a good leader. She does not, however, lead by example, thereby breaking the paradigm for how an authority figure in a sci-fi show is supposed to behave.
I really freaking love my show.
Some less charitable fan opinions I've come across regarding Weir include 1) that she is badly written as a leader by writers whose only known examples of women in leadership positions were their kindergarten teachers, 2) that she is presented as merely competent at her job, putting her in poor contrast to her male counterparts, who are all excellent at their jobs, 3) corollary to both 1 and 2, that she simply hasn't shown enough talent as a leader or a diplomat to justify her having achieved the position of head of the Atlantis expedition.
I'm somewhat inclined to agree with 1 -- many of her lines, I think, could be better written. I'd be willing to argue with 2, but that's a subject for another post. As to 3, I don't care to debate whether Elizabeth is a good diplomat or leader. I will, however, argue that her skill as a diplomat or leader, on the whole, has very little bearing on her having achieved her position as head of the Atlantis expedition.
She doesn't need to be the best diplomat in two galaxies because she knows how to find advantages in the situation surrounding a debate, rather than the debate itself. She doesn't need to be the principal authority figure for every single person under her leadership because she knows how to delegate power. Where others would deal directly, she slides in through the back door. Elizabeth is not head of Atlantis for her outstanding performance as a diplomat and leader, but rather for her brilliance as a politician.
And she is a brilliant politician.
The first time Elizabeth's authority was seriously questioned was in 1x13 "Hot Zone." John directly disobeyed her order. She told him something to the effect of, "If you keep undermining my authority I won't be able to lead (and the whole expedition will fall apart—you don't want the expedition to fall apart, right?)" She then asked him for his promise that the incident would not be repeated.
Asking John for his promise the way one might ask for a favor didn't exactly put her in a position of power. But then, she knew John well enough to know that John doesn't respond well to shows of power, and that the best way to get him to go along with her was to appeal to his sense of empathy. Perhaps it may have sounded better to say, "If you do this again, your punishment will be very severe," but it wouldn't have been nearly as effective. As it was, John hasn't disobeyed her since.
The second time Elizabeth's authority was seriously questioned was in 1x20 "The Siege II." Colonel Everett waltzed into her city, disparaged her for "giving up" and starting the self-destruct sequence, and basically told her, "I going to fix this nasty wraith annoyance with my giant cock. All you civilians can go back to your knitting." Of course, Everett learned his lesson soon after.
As soon as the battle was over, Weir proceeded to pull every string at her disposal to ensure that John stayed on as military leader and Carson stayed on as head doctor, despite their being better qualified candidates in both fields. And while it would be easy to chalk these actions up to sentimentality on Elizabeth's part, one must take into account what this meant for the expedition.
Suffice it to say, Elizabeth did not go back to her knitting. In fact, she did everything in her power to ensure that no military hot shot from the SGC would ever waltz into her city and tell her how to run things ever again. Elizabeth was originally supposed to take General O'Neill's place at the SGC. They gave her Atlantis instead, her beautiful island in the sun, and by God, they weren't getting it back.
Interesting side note:permetaform was looking through scenes for a vid. She noticed that the background characters in Atlantis are generally always intermixed, of both genders and usually multiracial. She then noticed an SGC scene showing scientists on one side, military on the other, and all of them white men.
I noticed first in 2x13 "Critical Mass" (though it may have started earlier) that Ronon had begun showing up at the meetings among the leading members of the Atlantis expedition. Formerly these meetings were only attended by Elizabeth, John, Rodney and Teyla. I think it is safe to assume that as expedition leader, it was Elizabeth's decision to include Ronon in these executive meetings.
Which brings up the question -- why Ronon? Assuming Ronon isn't just there by fluke because the writers got lazy and wanted to find a way to further incorporate him into the show, Elizabeth must have had a reason for including him. Ford never attended these meetings in season 1 when he was the 4th member of John's team.
The most logical explanation I can think of is that Elizabeth wanted another military perspective when making executive decisions. She has far more military under her command than she did in season 1. She has regular contact with Caldwell and the SGC, thereby giving her the resources to go on the offensive with the wraith. Atlantis is no longer solely a civilian operation. It might have made sense for the next highest ranking military officer after John to have been in attendence, however I can see why she didn't choose, say, Major Lorne. Specifically, I'm recalling her conversation with him in 2x10 "Lost Boys" wherein he says in regards to Sheppard's team, "Oh, you know how those guys are, don't get too worried."
Of course, all Elizabeth had to do was raise an eyebrow for him to remember that failing to take John and herself seriously was a bad idea. Still, Ronon made for a better choice. He is a military specialist, intensely loyal to John and therefore to Elizabeth, and without any preconcieved notions regarding Elizabeth. He also knows how to think outside the SGC box.
I suppose I could be reaching here, but well, I've been giving the series the benefit of the doubt since I started watching and it hasn't disappointed me yet. Well, except with Miko. Self-effacing Asian female going, "filial piety yay! Yes large pompous white man, tell me how I may please you!"
...but that is a rant for another post.
Elizabeth has done everything in her power to preserve the spirit of the original expedition while at the same time transforming it into a viable line of defense against the Wraith. I do think she is a good leader. She does not, however, lead by example, thereby breaking the paradigm for how an authority figure in a sci-fi show is supposed to behave.
I really freaking love my show.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2006-01-31 08:04 am (UTC)Will have more intelligent remarks when more awake like.
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Date: 2006-02-01 01:23 am (UTC)*g*
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Date: 2006-01-31 08:50 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-01 01:24 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-01-31 01:08 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-01 01:38 am (UTC)Sometimes Elizabeth will use a bit of manipulation, make some compromises, but I think her heart is in the right place, and at the end of the day, she's managed to keep together a pretty cohesive unit made up of people who generally don't get along too well by their very natures.
(no subject)
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Date: 2006-01-31 01:11 pm (UTC)I do agree with opinion 1), and in my eyes, even opinion 2) isn't entirely wrong...but that this is an inherent problem resulting from what you say so eloquently in your response to 3) -- that she is, first and foremost, a politician.
By nature, a good politician isn't omniscient, omnipotent, or an expert in one field, can't excel the way John does with flying or last-ditch attempts to save his & who he considers his own or the way Rodney does with everything regarding science & technology: There's nothing flashy about being a politician, if you don't take speeches into account -- and even they don't have to be; plenty of parliament members and local representatives as well as chancellors & presidents around the world do a very good job without rousing the masses and making them rise in one spirit...which is what we're used to and what we love, of course, looking up to and loving the orators more than the rest, from Churchill to Kennedy, who tell us how it is, how it has to be, and how to get there.
This isn't what Elizabeth does, of course, and I truly believe that's a good thing, especially in Atlantis. She isn't about prescribing a strict path, the one right solution; her success with people and problems stems from her keen grasp on power dynamics and her ability to involve and include the ones relevant to their respective fields in her own decisions and actions.
A good politician, I think, excels in understanding and implementing just that.
I have more thoughts about Elizabeth, notably because I'm hell-bent on giving her the part she deserves in Auburn's & my genderswitch epic, but I think I'll do it in my own LJ. *g*
You, rock on.
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Date: 2006-02-01 01:46 am (UTC)Oh God, her speeches. They gave her some paneful ones. The ones she gave to Kavanagh were particularly trite. I'm so glad she's moved on to direct threats in season 2.
XD
Oooooooh, you must tell me more about this genderswitch epic. I'm all aflutter. Elizabeth genderswitch?
And yay! Thanks for commenting!
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Date: 2006-01-31 03:34 pm (UTC)I've been TRYING to articulate my thoughts to various people about why Elizabeth Weir rocks my socks and *is* *indeed* a feminist leader (she leads by *delegation* of power - ie shows trust in her people - and *relationships* not by brute strength and arbitrary chain of command but now you've gone and done it for me. Wow. Thank you.
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Date: 2006-02-01 01:17 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-01-31 05:08 pm (UTC)I think I decided that my problems with Elizabeth were just that - *my* problems. Despite thinking of myself as an ardent feminist, some of those internalized stereotypes are pretty hard to shake - I realized that I had never given her the benefit of the doubt in the same way as I had to any of the Generals at the SGC, who I just *assumed* must be good leaders, thus ipso facto their actions were the actions of a good leader. I made Elizabeth prove her mad leading skills to me in a way I never demanded from men wearing stars on their lapels.
I'm starting to think that Elizabeth is in fact an excellent leader for a lot of the reasons you've outlined. She's not a showy leader, but she's very good at understanding interpersonal relationships and manipulating them while still appearing completely genuine.
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Date: 2006-02-01 01:58 am (UTC)Yes! I really love what they're doing with her season 2 arc.
And yes, I think we tend to assume that female characters aren't going to be as well written as their male counterparts. Male writers do tend to be more likely to give male characters depth. At the same, a bad writer will write badly regardless of the character's gender. ::cough::Smallville::cough::
So glad you found my post interesting!
(no subject)
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Date: 2006-01-31 05:08 pm (UTC)Great essay, and I find you've ably articulated some squee-ish feelings I had Elizabeth!
Also, in that scene with Lorne, he himself goes down the empathy path when he corrects himself to say, "Uh, we are concerned about them."
except with Miko. Self-effacing Asian female going, "filial piety yay! Yes large pompous white man, tell me how I may please you!"
...but that is a rant for another post.
Am looking forward to your thoughts on that. Especially because her scene in 'Letters in Pegasus' turned on my very!annoyed!asian!boy mode.
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Date: 2006-02-01 01:18 am (UTC)I don't really know how much more I have to say about such a post.Miko. Aside from that rather glaring instance, I think SGA's been really good about avoiding that kind of overt stereotyping.
If anything, I'd want to write a post on how the fan reaction to that scene disturbed me (no one voiced any real objection, and a number of people just thought Miko was *cute*), but I don't know if I'd want the drama that would come with posting that.
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Date: 2006-01-31 06:43 pm (UTC)Now I need someone to write an insightful post on Teyla so maybe I can like her a little bit, too. *g*
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Date: 2006-02-01 01:59 am (UTC)I will get right on that.
*g*
(no subject)
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Date: 2006-01-31 07:19 pm (UTC)I'm on the fence about Elizabeth. I don't think she's badly written... Just that TPTB aren't spending enough time developing and strengthening her character which is really damn sad considering she's heading up this expedition. She's doing a fair job but I have to say that I was expecting something more since you know... Everyone chosen for that team exceled in what ever their specialty is. While I feel that everyone else has stepped up to the plate and exceeded expectation, Elizabeth has been stuck in 2nd gear... barely keeping up with her counterparts.
The first time Elizabeth's authority was seriously questioned was in 1x13 "Hot Zone." John directly disobeyed her order. She told him something to the effect of, "If you keep undermining my authority I won't be able to lead (and the whole expedition will fall apart—you don't want the expedition to fall apart, right?)" She then asked him for his promise that the incident would not be repeated.
Hum... Sheppard is a loose cannon. I wouldn't put it passed him to defy Elizabeth again if he felt she was wrong and his actions (though not ALL THAT RIGHT) would perhaps be less wrong than the course of action Elizabeth has chosen to take. It just means that he'd give it a full 2 min of thought before going in guns blazing.
Elizabeth's strength is subtle... A little too subtle. At times she's comes off as being vulnerable and that looks like a weakness. TPTB need to write her as a stronger character before these subtle hints have an impact on the audience. It’s the difference betw Captain Janeway from Star Trek and Elizabeth from SGA speaking to their enemies. Elizabeth just doesn't have the weight behind her words and actions.
I'm really hoping they give Weir a backbone soon, because at this point the feeling I get is that everyone is just humoring her because she was named "leader" of the Atlantis Expedition. I loved how she handled the situation in Condemned and I want to see more episodes like that.
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Date: 2006-02-01 01:20 am (UTC)I can't really see John repeating what he did in Hot Zone. I think at the beginning of the series the two characters were very much getting a feel for each other and testing boundaries, testing to see whether they could work together,. By now I'd say it's come to the point where they both know how not to cross each other's lines.
I'm really hoping they give Weir a backbone soon, because at this point the feeling I get is that everyone is just humoring her because she was named "leader" of the Atlantis Expedition. I loved how she handled the situation in Condemned and I want to see more episodes like that.
I never really felt that Weir lacked back bone, but I do agree that it was pretty ambiguous in season 1 whether or not she had one. She *could* have, but they didn't really show it. Have you only seen the episodes aired in the US? In that case, I think you'll enjoy the rest of season 2.
:)
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Date: 2006-01-31 09:15 pm (UTC)And since the away team seems to pretty consistently be Sheppard, McKay, Teyla, and Ronon, it doesn't make sense for Ronon *not* to be included in team meetings.
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Date: 2006-02-01 01:20 am (UTC)That is your perogative. The show has a lot of subtlety, which some fans prefer to interpret as ambiguity and/or poor execution.
And since the away team seems to pretty consistently be Sheppard, McKay, Teyla, and Ronon, it doesn't make sense for Ronon *not* to be included in team meetings.
They aren't team meetings. They are meetings for the expedition leaders. Elizabeth, overall leader, John, military leader, Rodney, science leader, Teyla, Pegasus galaxy representative.
As I already mentioned in my post, Ford was the fourth member of John's team all through season 1 and he never attended one of these meetings the entire time he was on Atlantis.
Perhaps you skimmed over that part.
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From:I'm all on board with Weir now.
Date: 2006-02-01 01:17 pm (UTC)she knew John well enough to know that John doesn't respond well to shows of power, and that the best way to get him to go along with her was to appeal to his sense of empathy.
*nods* Weir appealed to John's softer side. His whoamanly side.
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Date: 2006-02-02 12:54 am (UTC)Anyway I do love Elizabeth Weir precisely because she's subtle in her leadership.
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Date: 2006-02-02 01:44 am (UTC)I can only speak for myself, but I don't think she's a good leader because she plays favorites, and she doesn't always treat her subordinates with respect. If I were on the expedition, not as one of her favorites, but just Jane Scientist working in the lab, I might like her, but I wouldn't respect or trust her.
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Date: 2006-02-02 12:55 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-02 05:44 am (UTC)I've loved Elizabeth since the start. Female characters in any number of shows seem to be held to a different standard to male characters, and I do get tired of hearing the fans (mostly female) bashing the female characters, but not saying a word when the male characters act similarly.
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Date: 2006-02-02 07:14 am (UTC)This essay is sensational and it puts into words all that I love about Elizabeth. There has been much ranting about the 'Lantis leader and her insuitability so it's very refreshing to see another point of view.
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Date: 2006-02-02 09:02 pm (UTC)The entire repeated emotional arc of being trapped and alone, first in "Grace Under Pressure," then in "Tower," then with Ronon and Teyla in "Inferno."
There's been the entire Ronon arc, starting with his extreme case of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder that he's slowly been working through. There's his interesting dynamic with Teyla, being her little brother in many ways. His loyalty and how that loyalty can turn on the people to which he is loyal.
Teyla we've seen away from the team dynamic more in this season than before. Her dynamic with Ronon subtly changing her dynamic with the rest of the team, Teyla who may be a more gifted diplomat than Weir and put in the situation she was put in in "Coup De'tat" -- I really love that we got to see how *smart* Teyla is this season.
Elizabeth's arc has been one of my favorites, and I really love what they did with her this season, showing the lengths she would go to to protect her expedition and her city, showing how she could make potentially fatal errors *because* she is so willing to make moral compromises for the sake of her people and her city. I particularly like her changing dynamic with Caldwell, and found the goauld arc just served to make that relationship dynamic more interesting.
I thought what they did with John was interesting. I love that Epiphany wasn't really about John being separated from his team so much as the fact that he *gave up* on his team. That he was so lost without that family unit he worked so hard to put together. Also interesting in how often we see John in this situation in a position of powerlessness, very unlike season 1. He is betrayed by Rodney, kidnapped more than once, posessed, caged by the wraith and drilled for information -- a particularly interesting reversal to season 1.
From that very brief overview of my impression of the season, I really don't see season 2 as plot driven at all. The plot did definitely go in a very different direction from season 1, but I think that only served to take the characters in new and intersting directions.
I wrote this post because of what I saw in Elizabeth's arc in season 2 -- pretty much all the realizations I came to in this post I got from season 2, not season 1.
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Date: 2006-02-02 01:52 pm (UTC)*bows down in worship* Yes! You've gotten her! This is what I've seen in her, what I've tried to express in my own meta about her. She does have good reasons for what she does, and she is good at what she is doing.
*adds to memories*
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Date: 2006-02-08 05:51 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-08-31 10:29 pm (UTC)Just here with a drive-by posting (which probably will just get lost considering this is an older piece of meta is, although it is an awesome piece of meta and I can't resist it)... I was thinking about Ronon's place on the team (and his relationship with Elizabeth) again after watching "Common Ground". I've been noticing since latter-S2 that Ronon seems to be filling the token role of the military pragmatist (to an extent) on the team and the meetings. Roles Sumner, Bates, Caldwell, Everett all played in the past... but in another way (more significant, since the writers seem to love Ronon more, bless 'em). A more personal way, maybe? Since Sumner, Bates, Caldwell and Everett didn't have the personal and tragic connection Ronon does as an inhabitant of Pegasus, tortured by the Wraith and has an overprotective streak 10 miles wide. Ronon is also empassioned in a way those other military stalwarts were not (imho). John and Ronon are both military, but represent two different sides of it (for Elizabeth). One side she'd probably tend to agree with more than the other, but she values both their insights equally. Even if she probably may not tend to agree with Ronon (or she wouldn't as readily admit it if she did... since I think Liz/Ronon are a lot more alike underneath despite the seemingly vast differences her stringent politician exterior / teacher-voice and his machismo warrior bravado would seem to elude... something I'd see both denying if someone made that comparison)... she even uses his capacity to intimidate against Ladon. The Weir/Ladon meeting went from private to Ronon hovering menacingly behind Ladon's chair. Also the, "The more I hear, the more I'm glad he is" line? She totally knows what Ronon can do... and there are definite times she isn't afraid to take advantage of it (And Weir's threat to Ladon later on after his intel proved bunk? "If it were up to me..." Dude. Ronon and Liz? A lot more alike then they'd ever admit).
Although it's still awesome Liz would include him in the meetings / in confidence / trusts him to lead the team and get Sheppard back... even if his opinion has come into conflict with her own / her decisions on more than one occasion. It's clear Liz doesn't want people around who just agree with her, she wants people who she can depend on to get the job done. She values Ronon's opinion/insight, despite his moments of insubordination (which makes Elizabeth all the more awesome since Momoa is something like 10ft tall and plays Ronon's mean-glare in a way that would make me cry like a little girl... Liz lets it wash right off her. The "let's continue this in my office... privately" and the look she gave him? Pure awesomeness ).