Meta thoughts
Jul. 8th, 2005 12:25 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
lierdumoaPOV in Vidding
From this post and this post. I left essays in the comment thread of both, and thought I'd transfer some of the thoughts to here.
[Edit: Rewritten, hopefully in English, this time.]
Not all vids have a single character's point of view. May are omniscient. Not all vidders vid with a specific point of view in mind. It often goes unregistered that vids are in the first person if for some reason there is a voice/character disconnect (i.e. female singer, male view) or if the point of view is complex in some way (alternating between characters or not lyric based) or if it is inconsistent.
All of my vids are in the first person. Conceptulally, anyway. That's how they look to me in my head. They are in the viewpoint of a specific character at all times. More then that, I am putting myself in the place of that specific character and watching the vid as if I were that character. The viewer might not always register who the speaker is in my vids, and that is perfectly fine with me, but I always have a speaker in mind when I'm making them, and I'm always putting myself in the place of that speaker.
The same goes for writing. I write either in the first person or the third person limited (the latter which I generally think of as first person, but using third person pronouns). I tried to write third person omniscient once and my beta came back to me saying, "It's like you're writing in one character's point of view, then switching randomly to another character's point of view without warning." My fic ended up in the third person limited in spite of me.
One of the biggest surprises I ever had in terms of vid feedback was the response to my Superman vid -- the last QaF vid I made. A fairly large portion of my audience assumed the vid was about my view of Brian Kinney. My intention for the vid was that it be about Brian Kinney's view of himself.
Assume everyone thinks like me. Find out they don't. Be surprised. Assimilate the specific situation, but not the general assumption, and continue to think that in every other way, people think like me. Lather, rinse, repeat.
Epiphany! I relate to characters by internalizing their viewpoint. By putting myself in a character's place. This is why I write and vid the way I do. How a character sees the world around them affects how I see a character. This is part of why I have never really related well to characters like Angel from AtS or Malcolm Reynolds from Firefly. Their personalities are so wholly different from mine that it's very difficult for me to put myself in their place. Perhaps I could vid such a character if I were to choose another character on the show and vid him/her from the way that other character sees him/her.
Or, alternately, make a vid with no plot. I can remember certain sections of my 3rd? 4th? vid that were not in the point of view of any particular character (QaF to the Aqua Teen Hunger Force theme song: comedy) -- sections which also had no discernable narrative and involved only line by line literalisms. I think my ability to tell a story about a character depends greatly on my understanding of that character depends greatly on my ability to put myself in that character's shoes.
I've written meta about characters omnisciently and managed to do so by addressing them in strictly descriptive terms, without telling any kind of story about them. My vidding style is narrative, but it would be interesting to create something outside of that style. An experiment for another time, perhaps?
I'm remembering![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
astolat's vid of Ray Kowalski and how I watched it by putting myself in the main character's place and didn't realize I was doing so until I sisabet noted that she didn't. Only then did it occur to me that the vidder may have, perhaps, not put herself in the main character's place while making it. I know plenty of writers who can write in first person without actually putting themselves in the character's place. I'm not one of them.
I have often said what the point of view is in my vid summaries assuming 1) that it would help people decide if they wanted to watch it and 2) that the specific point of view would be as clear to the viewer when watching my vid as it was to me when making it.
I'm considering not doing this in the future. It feels wrong to be telling people how they should be watching my vids, and I'm conflicted as to whether such information is helpful or hurtful. Again, not being able to tell what the vidder's intended point of view is often has no effect on the viewer's liking of the vid.
How much should a vid speak for itself?
How much does the viewer appreciate insights into the maker's thought process? Before they watch the vid vs. after they watch it?
Which is more valid? The author's intention or the viewer's interpretation? When I am the one producing, I like to think that both are equally valid. When I am consuming, I generally assume that the producer's intension is more valid than my interpretation.
Constructive Criticism
From various sources, on and off LJ.
The problem with the term constructive criticism is that it implies praise is not constructive.
Specifically, I'm thinking of a fic I read recently. I gave the author a happy, squeeful reply. I think that perhaps something in my comment was percieved as a backwards compliment, and the author went on to describe what she percieved as a failing in her writing.
I looked at the other comments in the story's thread, also squeeful, some detailed, some not. I noticed that mine had been given a lot more attention than the other comments in the thread, even the more specific and developed comments. I assumed this was *because* my comment was percieved as a backwards compliment.
After I read the author's reply, I briefly thought of other people I'd come across who reacted similarly, and debated trying to word my praise to them in the form of backwards compliments to get them to take it seriously. That would be quick fix at best, though, and in the long run probably do more harm than good.
A good beta knows, and anyone who has ever taken a writing workshop will tell you to balance praise with criticsm. Ideally, what comes out is a well rounded review. Only I've met people who seemed to assume that the praise was simply there to soften the blow of the criticism.
It it because women in our culture are bred to play down praise? To not accept compliments? Trained throughout youth to be insecure?
Am I making too many generalizations? Yes, I think I am. I'm trying to find a balance where where I can discuss specifics without putting anyone on the spot.
It's not really working.
This thought flow has petered out.
Oi.
From this post and this post. I left essays in the comment thread of both, and thought I'd transfer some of the thoughts to here.
[Edit: Rewritten, hopefully in English, this time.]
Not all vids have a single character's point of view. May are omniscient. Not all vidders vid with a specific point of view in mind. It often goes unregistered that vids are in the first person if for some reason there is a voice/character disconnect (i.e. female singer, male view) or if the point of view is complex in some way (alternating between characters or not lyric based) or if it is inconsistent.
All of my vids are in the first person. Conceptulally, anyway. That's how they look to me in my head. They are in the viewpoint of a specific character at all times. More then that, I am putting myself in the place of that specific character and watching the vid as if I were that character. The viewer might not always register who the speaker is in my vids, and that is perfectly fine with me, but I always have a speaker in mind when I'm making them, and I'm always putting myself in the place of that speaker.
The same goes for writing. I write either in the first person or the third person limited (the latter which I generally think of as first person, but using third person pronouns). I tried to write third person omniscient once and my beta came back to me saying, "It's like you're writing in one character's point of view, then switching randomly to another character's point of view without warning." My fic ended up in the third person limited in spite of me.
One of the biggest surprises I ever had in terms of vid feedback was the response to my Superman vid -- the last QaF vid I made. A fairly large portion of my audience assumed the vid was about my view of Brian Kinney. My intention for the vid was that it be about Brian Kinney's view of himself.
Assume everyone thinks like me. Find out they don't. Be surprised. Assimilate the specific situation, but not the general assumption, and continue to think that in every other way, people think like me. Lather, rinse, repeat.
Epiphany! I relate to characters by internalizing their viewpoint. By putting myself in a character's place. This is why I write and vid the way I do. How a character sees the world around them affects how I see a character. This is part of why I have never really related well to characters like Angel from AtS or Malcolm Reynolds from Firefly. Their personalities are so wholly different from mine that it's very difficult for me to put myself in their place. Perhaps I could vid such a character if I were to choose another character on the show and vid him/her from the way that other character sees him/her.
Or, alternately, make a vid with no plot. I can remember certain sections of my 3rd? 4th? vid that were not in the point of view of any particular character (QaF to the Aqua Teen Hunger Force theme song: comedy) -- sections which also had no discernable narrative and involved only line by line literalisms. I think my ability to tell a story about a character depends greatly on my understanding of that character depends greatly on my ability to put myself in that character's shoes.
I've written meta about characters omnisciently and managed to do so by addressing them in strictly descriptive terms, without telling any kind of story about them. My vidding style is narrative, but it would be interesting to create something outside of that style. An experiment for another time, perhaps?
I'm remembering
astolat's vid of Ray Kowalski and how I watched it by putting myself in the main character's place and didn't realize I was doing so until I sisabet noted that she didn't. Only then did it occur to me that the vidder may have, perhaps, not put herself in the main character's place while making it. I know plenty of writers who can write in first person without actually putting themselves in the character's place. I'm not one of them.I have often said what the point of view is in my vid summaries assuming 1) that it would help people decide if they wanted to watch it and 2) that the specific point of view would be as clear to the viewer when watching my vid as it was to me when making it.
I'm considering not doing this in the future. It feels wrong to be telling people how they should be watching my vids, and I'm conflicted as to whether such information is helpful or hurtful. Again, not being able to tell what the vidder's intended point of view is often has no effect on the viewer's liking of the vid.
How much should a vid speak for itself?
How much does the viewer appreciate insights into the maker's thought process? Before they watch the vid vs. after they watch it?
Which is more valid? The author's intention or the viewer's interpretation? When I am the one producing, I like to think that both are equally valid. When I am consuming, I generally assume that the producer's intension is more valid than my interpretation.
Constructive Criticism
From various sources, on and off LJ.
The problem with the term constructive criticism is that it implies praise is not constructive.
Specifically, I'm thinking of a fic I read recently. I gave the author a happy, squeeful reply. I think that perhaps something in my comment was percieved as a backwards compliment, and the author went on to describe what she percieved as a failing in her writing.
I looked at the other comments in the story's thread, also squeeful, some detailed, some not. I noticed that mine had been given a lot more attention than the other comments in the thread, even the more specific and developed comments. I assumed this was *because* my comment was percieved as a backwards compliment.
After I read the author's reply, I briefly thought of other people I'd come across who reacted similarly, and debated trying to word my praise to them in the form of backwards compliments to get them to take it seriously. That would be quick fix at best, though, and in the long run probably do more harm than good.
A good beta knows, and anyone who has ever taken a writing workshop will tell you to balance praise with criticsm. Ideally, what comes out is a well rounded review. Only I've met people who seemed to assume that the praise was simply there to soften the blow of the criticism.
It it because women in our culture are bred to play down praise? To not accept compliments? Trained throughout youth to be insecure?
Am I making too many generalizations? Yes, I think I am. I'm trying to find a balance where where I can discuss specifics without putting anyone on the spot.
It's not really working.
This thought flow has petered out.
Oi.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
I Think We Have a Misunderstanding
Date: 2005-07-08 04:20 pm (UTC)But as a viewer, it was kind of my introduction to the character. He is speaking in the vid - to an audience. My opinion is that the way the vid was cut, the speed and movement of the cuts - this creates another connect to the character, beyond lyrical interpretation. Since we had that original discussion, I've seen dS 1-3 and so I *get* much more from the vid. But I still think that what she did was a masterful representation of a character -- but the vid is totally first person and I never would ever posit any other way.
Re: I Think We Have a Misunderstanding
Date: 2005-07-08 04:59 pm (UTC)I meant more about the vidder's thought process and my thought process than the actual content of the vid.
Uhm, hm. How to say this right? Like how many writers will write in POV without actually putting themselves in the place of the character. They're writing in POV, but not internalizing the POV.
I internalized the POV when I watched
So I shouldn't have said the vid could be percieved as omniscient, because clearly it is in POV. I should have said that the vidder could have been an omnicient observer while creating a POV vid.
Or something.
I feel I have stopped making sense even to myself.
::brain not working::
Re: I Think We Have a Misunderstanding
Date: 2005-07-08 07:15 pm (UTC)POV is very important in vids. If someone just says "My vid is a POV vid" and leaves it at this I am left with the impression that either this person does not know what POV means (and in vidding, we pretty much use it the same way as your English teacher taught it) or they are not that invested in whose voice is being heard in the song/vid.
I don't say this to limit the vidder. I say this because, to steal an idea from Luminosity, vidding - good vidding - must be deliberate. Chosing what you are saying and who is saying it and how they are saying it is *very* important even if there is no defined and strict narrative and even if the Point of View is shared by multiple characters or beings. You as the vidder have to know what it is that you are saying, otherwise it is just a bunch of pretty movement on the beat. And yeah - there is value in just that, but, and here I speak just for me, just making pretty things move on beat is ultimately hollow. I need a bit *more* to dig into, ya know?
Okay - so it is like erotica. The act that is being described is fun and interesting and hot, right? Well - not always. Not to me. I usually need a connection to be there in order to find written smut engaging. I need that moment where it becomes about something other than just the act - because while the act itself is nice and fine, it can get boring and mechanical without that deeper connection. Without the emotional connection it is just moving parts.
Not really examining the POV choices you make as a vidder can result in a sloppy vid. I'm sorry - this is my opionion, but I believe very strongly in it.
Now - back to your comment. I don't think what you call POV is actually POV - I think what you are hung up on is the vidder's actual intent:
Did shalott vid "Zebra" as Ray Kowalski or did she vid it about Ray Kowalski? Right? That is the essential hang up here, am I right?
And - methods and processes aside - the essential thing I have to gather is "Does it even matter?"
Because ultimately it does not. What matters is the audience interpretation of the vid. Yes - I experienced this vid as a vid about a certain character (and it obviously sparked an interest as I now actually know the character in question) and you identified much more closely as the character.
Neither experience is invalid. Just different ways to watch.
I get closely identifying with a character. I broke down crying several times when I made "Paradise" (Angel First Person POV). But this does not mean I was Angel when I made that vid. It doesn't matter. What matters is the intent, whatever it was, was there.
So be deliberate in your vidding and leave it to the audience to sort out.
Re: I Think We Have a Misunderstanding
Date: 2005-07-08 08:55 pm (UTC)In the past I've always thought of what a vid is saying and who is saying it and how they are saying it as something found. Something inherent in the song that I bring out, rather than something I choose to make out of the song.
Which, of course, doesn't mean I didn't make a choice, just that it wasn't a conscious choice.
This post was mainly about me better understanding my own thought process, not necessarily in the interest of making better vids but definitely in the interest of being a better vidder -- deal with the latter, and the former will come.
I've grown more stylistically than I have narratively. I understand my visual style really well. I find visual style easy to experiment with, and to recognize in others. Narratively, I feel like I've been telling the same kind of story over and over. I ought to be trying new things, but how?
My grasp of narrative and point of view and character are largely instinctive. This post is a perfect example. I wrote it entirely in shorthand, and didn't even realize it until three people pointed out that it made no sense.
Because my grasp of these conceps is instinctive, my practice of these concepts is not deliberate. I can't tell what's working and what isn't. I don't know what to look for. I know when something feels wrong, but I don't know how to get things from being merely "not wrong" to being "right."
I get closely identifying with a character. I broke down crying several times when I made "Paradise" (Angel First Person POV). But this does not mean I was Angel when I made that vid. It doesn't matter. What matters is the intent, whatever it was, was there.
I would not have expected you to be Angel when you made the vid. Or rather, I would have, in the past, because it's what *I* would have done and I assumed other people worked this way without ever putting any conscious thought into it.
Having put conscious thought into it, and coming to the conclusion that not everyone works like this and most people likely don't, has made me incredibly curious as to 1) how other people work and 2) if it is possible for me to work differently. Not because I think the way I work is wrong, but because if I could work differently, that would mean I understood my current working process well enough to experiment with it.
Did shalott vid "Zebra" as Ray Kowalski or did she vid it about Ray Kowalski? Right? That is the essential hang up here, am I right?
And - methods and processes aside - the essential thing I have to gather is "Does it even matter?"
You are right in identifying the hangup. Indeed, it doesn't matter for the overall quality of the vid, nor to how the vid is recieved by the audience. At the moment, I'm more concerned with the process of vidding than with the concrete results of it, which is the point where this particular question becomes relevant.
I'm probably going about this all the wrong way, but I'm getting closer. I think.
Thanks so much for commenting. As always, you manage to stretch my brain more than I'd ever stretch it on my own.
=)
no subject
Date: 2005-07-08 04:50 pm (UTC)Sorry, I don't mean to give you grief for using it, because I suspect it's the fannish norm, but I don't get it.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-08 05:13 pm (UTC)When I say I vid in POV, I mean that I have put myself in a specific character's viewpoint, and made the vid from that character's viewpoint. I am imagining that I am that character, rather then observing that character from the oustide.
Based on what you wrote after, I can only guess it's some fan-created, back-assward way of saying "omnicient?"
Can you tell me specifically what I wrote that made you think that? I'm really quite bad at wording things, but I'd like for this post to at least make a little sense.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-08 05:36 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-08 05:48 pm (UTC)I got used to using "in POV" to mean in a specific person's viewpoint.
I think I have a lot of made up lingo that I'm so used to using and that my friends I usually speak with are so used to hearing that I forget I in fact made it up and it doesn't really makes sense unless you know me really well.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-08 05:52 pm (UTC)I responded to
no subject
Date: 2005-07-08 06:11 pm (UTC)I think a lot depends on song choice, though, and how skilled the vidder is at getting their idea across. But treating POV as a sort of unimportant/random thing can really throw people out of a vid, especially with lyrics that are pronoun heavy.
Can you tell me specifically what I wrote that made you think that? I'm really quite bad at wording things, but I'd like for this post to at least make a little sense.
The phrase "All of my vids are in POV." POV refers to something specific -- whose eyes you're looking through. Using the phrase "in POV" tells me nothing.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-09 01:44 am (UTC)But is that just the audience bringing the POV? Was the vid constructed with the intent of a POV or could it just be the audience's input into null space?
no subject
Date: 2005-07-09 03:32 pm (UTC)No, I don't think it's just the audience bringing the POV. Each individual viewer has their own take on a vid, so I can't even generalize in that way. IMO, POV comes mainly from vidder intent, as the vehicle that drives the vid or pushes the idea along. Whether or not the vid is constructed in a linear or narrative form, there needs to be a consistent POV. If there isn't, it's basically random clips thrown at the timeline with little or no point.
If you haven't read
no subject
Date: 2005-07-08 06:05 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-08 06:17 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-08 06:18 pm (UTC)