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lierdumoaSpoilers through 2x06.
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adrienne2. She made the comment about Weir and her teacher voice, and her whole I'm a diplomat kind of out of my element thing. She pointed out the whole argument she had with Kavanaugh and the eyebrow raising and how Weir basically tries to use body language like speech, which doesn't really work because Weir isn't all that good and lying with her body and that's how she ends up looking like she's taking on a role whenever she's chewing out somebody calmly and superciliously. For example, when she was telling Caldwell about her connections w/ the president during 2x02.
I don't know how much of the unconvincing body language is Weir and how much is Torri Higginson and her acting. Which is to say, I don't know how much of it we as an audience are supposed to buy. I prefer not to buy it, because what what makes me like Elizabeth is the idea that this is not the real her. That her teacher voice is a voice she takes on and not just the way she talks, because if it were really who she was, she would be unbearable to me and I could no longer find her attractive. The Tracy Flick-ness is so not hot. I prefer to think of Weir as trying too hard then to think that she naturally talks like an infomercial. I prefer a Weir who acts the patronizing alpha bitch when she has to to a Weir who is naturally patronizing.
What I love about the Ronon/Weir pairing, beyond the simple aesthetic appeal of it, is that Weir's teacher voice just flat out doesn't work on Ronon. I love that one exchange they had when Weir was like, "I'm thinking about it...well, I guess we'll get back to each other then." I love that her teacher fell flat because going on my assumption that the teacher voice is not her real voice, this means that Weir is forced to be her real self around Ronon because her diplomatic Tracy Flick front doesn't work on him.
And, well, I truly believe that the front has to be a front. It can't be the real her. Because SGA is chock full of flawed characters, and it doesn't make any sense for her to be the sole one-dimensional character who isn't flawed.
I think if I could just get the two of them trapped in the same room long enough Ronon would piss the hell out of Weir and after clamming up for a while, she'd end up blurting things she totally didn't mean to say out loud. Of course, they'd have to be stuck in the same room for a good long time. But then, that's what PWP's are for.
There's also the thing where, I don't know why, but while I can easily picture Ronon rubbing off on another guy, I find it harder to picture him doing oral sex. Which isn't to say I don't think he would suck cock, but I think he'd be really out of his depth doing it. I can't actually picture a scene where Ronon administers oral sex that isn't an awkward first time scene. Not that I don't have love for awkward first time sex. Hell, I love awkward sex period. But. Eating pussy? He'd have the cat that ate the canary look on his face the whole damn time. The Ronon in my head? Likes it down there. It's his goddamn happy place.
Okay, now we'll go into why I find the character Ronon utterly delightful. First off, because he is OMGSOTOTALLYGORGEOUS. Seriously. Damn.
But I'm getting distracted.
I love that he's such a regular guy. I mean, Weir was a teacher's pet. Rodney was a terminal geek. John was a geek faking it as a popular kid. I'd say Teyla was student body president and captain of every girls sports team. Ronon was just a regular guy. He got A's and B's in his non-honors classes. He was first string football player, but probably not quarterback.
Okay, I'm stopping the high school metaphors now.
His country lived in a constant state of war, so he was recruited into the military at 16. He did not live a charmed life or anything, but Ronon was a regular guy. Okay, he wasn't. He survived the wraith for seven years, so clearly he's something extraordinary. But I have a feeling that aspect of him was completely and utterly dormant before his wraith capture. People who truly excel at survival don't find out about it until they are thrown into the kind of situation where death is around every corner.
He's still a little bit of a loose cannon because he's been outside society in fight or flight mode for so long. At the same time, he's not having too much trouble fitting in because the rest of the team members aren't particularly good at fitting in either. I think Ford, who was also a regular guy, but who didn't go through years of wraith trauma, had a harder time fitting in -- if only because he was so much younger than the rest of them that even John, who is mentally 14, saw him as a kid.
Which brings me to the Ronon/Teyla dynamic. I love their rapport in 2x06. The whole puppyish "You have a car and I don't know how to drive yet please take me with you" / "It's gonna be really boring" / "Yeah, yeah, whatever, pleeeease!" / "Okay fine, but behave" / "OMGAWESOME!"
I love how he slams the knife down on the table like big brother defending little sister, overreacting and overprotective because he hasn't had family in so long and he's still, like I said, a bit of a loose cannon from the whole post-traumatic running from the wraith thing. Even more do I love Teyla, ulitmate awesome alpha female, informing him that no, he is not the big brother, she is the big sister, and (to quoteadrienne2) just because he shot up eight inches at age 16 doesn't mean she forgot what it was like picking bugs out of his nose when he was two and don't ever, ever embarrass her in public like that again.
This impression of their dynamic is only cemented, I think, by their second conversation, after Ronon shoots his old commander, in which Teyla tells Ronin "I understood what you did, but the others will not....so we're not telling them." This exchange only reminds me of a conversation I had with my big sister when I was little after I got in a fight and her telling me, "If you're going to hit somebody, hit them in the stomach where the teachers can't see" (word for word, I swear to god -- I was a violent little girl, but luckily I got over it).
I'm still laughing at the whole "you guys make a cute couple thing" (why? because they're both brown? okay, maybe I'm overreacting, but I didn't find that guy particularly likeable) and Ronon looking at Teyla like "Eew. She's my sister. Eeeeeeeeeew."
Uhm. Insert conclusion here.
Talking with
adrienne2. She made the comment about Weir and her teacher voice, and her whole I'm a diplomat kind of out of my element thing. She pointed out the whole argument she had with Kavanaugh and the eyebrow raising and how Weir basically tries to use body language like speech, which doesn't really work because Weir isn't all that good and lying with her body and that's how she ends up looking like she's taking on a role whenever she's chewing out somebody calmly and superciliously. For example, when she was telling Caldwell about her connections w/ the president during 2x02.I don't know how much of the unconvincing body language is Weir and how much is Torri Higginson and her acting. Which is to say, I don't know how much of it we as an audience are supposed to buy. I prefer not to buy it, because what what makes me like Elizabeth is the idea that this is not the real her. That her teacher voice is a voice she takes on and not just the way she talks, because if it were really who she was, she would be unbearable to me and I could no longer find her attractive. The Tracy Flick-ness is so not hot. I prefer to think of Weir as trying too hard then to think that she naturally talks like an infomercial. I prefer a Weir who acts the patronizing alpha bitch when she has to to a Weir who is naturally patronizing.
What I love about the Ronon/Weir pairing, beyond the simple aesthetic appeal of it, is that Weir's teacher voice just flat out doesn't work on Ronon. I love that one exchange they had when Weir was like, "I'm thinking about it...well, I guess we'll get back to each other then." I love that her teacher fell flat because going on my assumption that the teacher voice is not her real voice, this means that Weir is forced to be her real self around Ronon because her diplomatic Tracy Flick front doesn't work on him.
And, well, I truly believe that the front has to be a front. It can't be the real her. Because SGA is chock full of flawed characters, and it doesn't make any sense for her to be the sole one-dimensional character who isn't flawed.
I think if I could just get the two of them trapped in the same room long enough Ronon would piss the hell out of Weir and after clamming up for a while, she'd end up blurting things she totally didn't mean to say out loud. Of course, they'd have to be stuck in the same room for a good long time. But then, that's what PWP's are for.
There's also the thing where, I don't know why, but while I can easily picture Ronon rubbing off on another guy, I find it harder to picture him doing oral sex. Which isn't to say I don't think he would suck cock, but I think he'd be really out of his depth doing it. I can't actually picture a scene where Ronon administers oral sex that isn't an awkward first time scene. Not that I don't have love for awkward first time sex. Hell, I love awkward sex period. But. Eating pussy? He'd have the cat that ate the canary look on his face the whole damn time. The Ronon in my head? Likes it down there. It's his goddamn happy place.
Okay, now we'll go into why I find the character Ronon utterly delightful. First off, because he is OMGSOTOTALLYGORGEOUS. Seriously. Damn.
But I'm getting distracted.
I love that he's such a regular guy. I mean, Weir was a teacher's pet. Rodney was a terminal geek. John was a geek faking it as a popular kid. I'd say Teyla was student body president and captain of every girls sports team. Ronon was just a regular guy. He got A's and B's in his non-honors classes. He was first string football player, but probably not quarterback.
Okay, I'm stopping the high school metaphors now.
His country lived in a constant state of war, so he was recruited into the military at 16. He did not live a charmed life or anything, but Ronon was a regular guy. Okay, he wasn't. He survived the wraith for seven years, so clearly he's something extraordinary. But I have a feeling that aspect of him was completely and utterly dormant before his wraith capture. People who truly excel at survival don't find out about it until they are thrown into the kind of situation where death is around every corner.
He's still a little bit of a loose cannon because he's been outside society in fight or flight mode for so long. At the same time, he's not having too much trouble fitting in because the rest of the team members aren't particularly good at fitting in either. I think Ford, who was also a regular guy, but who didn't go through years of wraith trauma, had a harder time fitting in -- if only because he was so much younger than the rest of them that even John, who is mentally 14, saw him as a kid.
Which brings me to the Ronon/Teyla dynamic. I love their rapport in 2x06. The whole puppyish "You have a car and I don't know how to drive yet please take me with you" / "It's gonna be really boring" / "Yeah, yeah, whatever, pleeeease!" / "Okay fine, but behave" / "OMGAWESOME!"
I love how he slams the knife down on the table like big brother defending little sister, overreacting and overprotective because he hasn't had family in so long and he's still, like I said, a bit of a loose cannon from the whole post-traumatic running from the wraith thing. Even more do I love Teyla, ulitmate awesome alpha female, informing him that no, he is not the big brother, she is the big sister, and (to quote
adrienne2) just because he shot up eight inches at age 16 doesn't mean she forgot what it was like picking bugs out of his nose when he was two and don't ever, ever embarrass her in public like that again.This impression of their dynamic is only cemented, I think, by their second conversation, after Ronon shoots his old commander, in which Teyla tells Ronin "I understood what you did, but the others will not....so we're not telling them." This exchange only reminds me of a conversation I had with my big sister when I was little after I got in a fight and her telling me, "If you're going to hit somebody, hit them in the stomach where the teachers can't see" (word for word, I swear to god -- I was a violent little girl, but luckily I got over it).
I'm still laughing at the whole "you guys make a cute couple thing" (why? because they're both brown? okay, maybe I'm overreacting, but I didn't find that guy particularly likeable) and Ronon looking at Teyla like "Eew. She's my sister. Eeeeeeeeeew."
Uhm. Insert conclusion here.
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I'm so glad we have fandoms in common. Your meta rocks!
Date: 2005-08-25 07:56 am (UTC)Ok, now I can kinda sorta see the Wier/Ronon. I can at least see where your coming from and it does make sense. I just can't really stand Wier in general. *ducks*
I find it harder to picture him doing oral sex.
Dude! Until you said it it hadn't occurred to me. But... YES. I can totally picturing him receiving oral pleasures but I can *not* see a dick in his mouth. Except maybe Sheppard's... but like *later*. It's such a submissive position and he wouldn't give it up to just anybody.
Eating pussy?... It's his goddamn happy place.
*lusts really a lot*
Ronon was a regular guy. Okay, he wasn't. He survived the wraith for seven years, so clearly he's something extraordinary. But I have a feeling that aspect of him was completely and utterly dormant before his wraith capture.
People who truly excel at survival don't find out about it until they are thrown into the kind of situation where death is around every corner.
I love that your pointing out Ronon's ability and will to survive. Not many people have even touched on it. And *this* for me is where the line between loving Ronon the character and seeing myself as Ronon the survivor blurs a lot. I *know* with certainty that I can survive *anything*. I've proven it. I *get* Ronon. I love him like kin - like he's a part of me.
"OMGAWESOME!"
*virtually snorts wine all over screen*
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Date: 2005-08-25 01:10 pm (UTC)I get a sibling vibe off R & T, too, especially after their little trip off-world. He allows himself to be vulnerable with her (getting drunk, getting choked up) in ways I don't think he'd allow the others, but I don't see it as a romantic thing at all.
I gather the actor doesn't, either. I remember reading an interview where he's asked if he foresees a romance between Ronon and Teyla, and his answer is a terse "No."
There's a lot to explore with Ronon. I'm dismayed by some fan reactions I've seen regarding him, dismissing him as dead air. I think they're just not paying attention. :)
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Date: 2005-08-25 01:44 pm (UTC)Which brings me to the Ronon/Teyla dynamic. I love their rapport in 2x06. The whole puppyish "You have a car and I don't know how to drive yet please take me with you" / "It's gonna be really boring" / "Yeah, yeah, whatever, pleeeease!" / "Okay fine, but behave" / "OMGAWESOME!"
Bwahaha! Oh that is just hilarious! I actually think Teyla/Ronon could work out (though yeah, I'm like, so the Sheppard/Teyla thing isn't happening, but it's okay to do Teyla/Ronon cuz they're both brown?) but I love what you say about the brother/sister dynamic. She really can't take him anywhere!
I love that he's such a regular guy. I mean, Weir was a teacher's pet. Rodney was a terminal geek. John was a geek faking it as a popular kid. I'd say Teyla was student body president and captain of every girls sports team. Ronon was just a regular guy. He got A's and B's in his non-honors classes. He was first string football player, but probably not quarterback.
Okay, I'm stopping the high school metaphors now.
No, don't stop! This fandom so needs more high school AUs!
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Date: 2005-08-25 04:48 pm (UTC)What I love about the Ronon/Weir pairing, beyond the simple aesthetic appeal of it, is that Weir's teacher voice just flat out doesn't work on Ronon.
That's what I loved about that scene, the idea that she didn't get him at all. And she's not that impressed by his muscles, like Shep is. And he didn't get her, in fact he found her kinda amusing. And they would just never be able to fool each other, it would be opposites attracting in the hottest way.
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Date: 2005-08-25 10:30 pm (UTC)Ronon's focus on her was so, so hot! And the biceps didn't hurt, either. God, he's pretty.
And I'm really glad to hear they're not going to push Ronon/Teyla, because yeah -- so siblings.
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Date: 2005-08-25 10:58 pm (UTC)And now I have to read some Ronon/Weir. Happy place! Hee!
Re: I'm so glad we have fandoms in common. Your meta rocks!
Date: 2005-08-26 03:17 pm (UTC)Also, I have visions of Ronon and Rodney dancing around my head (gen mostly, since I don't slash them) b/c everyone else is superpissed at Rodney right now.
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Date: 2005-08-26 03:52 pm (UTC)Hee! That's reassuring.
Dismissing him as dead air? This only reaffirms my belief that no matter where you go, you find crazies in the woodwork.
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Date: 2005-08-26 03:55 pm (UTC)And yes, I love their dynamic. I love that bit by bit we're getting to see how Ronin interacts with the rest of the main characters, not only as a group, but one on one.
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Date: 2005-08-26 03:56 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-08-26 04:45 pm (UTC)And Ronon is a sexy, sexy man.
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Date: 2005-08-26 04:46 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-08-29 03:25 pm (UTC)I think the "teacher" voice comes from the separation that seems to exsist between her and the rest of Team 'lantis Galaxy Police. I think this comes from the non-military in a military position and the need to make everyone happy while not compromising her goals for this mission into Pegasus.
There are some very true moments when Weir!teacher flickers and seems to fade into Weir!real, such as the Shep/Weir hug in Siege 3. She really cares about her people and their lives but I think she feels very cut off by her position at the same time.
When she first got to the Pegasus galaxy, she was thrust into the leading position without much guidance. Suddenly, there was no backup. If she gave an order, there wasn't anyone higher up saying "No, we can't do that!" It's a large amount of freedom, but one that's quite scary, I think. If she made a descision, she wholly responsible for it's outcome.
I like Weir, she's multi layered. Like Rodney, she has lots o' issues, but unlike Rodney, who's issues are painfully visible, her's are hidden behind the leader/teacher/mother mentality.
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Date: 2005-09-04 07:55 pm (UTC)I love Weir. I think she's very much learning how to work in the position she's in. She doesn't have experience with this kind of thing, and she's doing her best to fake it until she learns enough to not be faking it anymore.
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Date: 2005-09-06 02:40 am (UTC)...
And I like your images of the Teyla/Ronan dynamic: way too classic!
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Date: 2005-09-17 07:03 pm (UTC)I love the Teyla+Ronon vibe. It's totally a platonic thing to me, though. The new ship thing the fandom is doing with T/R is vaguely disturbing to me.
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Date: 2005-09-17 09:53 pm (UTC)*coughs*
I wouldn't be snarky, though. No, not I!
I think it could be a romantic vibe, but I suspect that Ronan presently looks at her as a warrior, an equal, and someone with whom his testosterone doesn't require he compete every time she does something better than him.
But I'll still blame you for all the Elizabeth/Ronan that I'm going to write!
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Date: 2005-11-13 01:54 am (UTC)Thanks for sharing.
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Date: 2006-01-27 03:56 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-01-27 04:37 am (UTC)Basically I loved that scene because it was Weir being the slightly nerdy girl who's got a crush on the superhot football player and manages to completely embarrass herself every time she tries to talk to him, but she keeps trying because he's Just. That. Hot.
I see Ronon as thinking -- 'Nice tits, but a liiiitle bit coo-coo."
Mainly in the way that Weir is a *diplomat* and Ronon is used to a society and an environment where diplomacy just doesn't work 99% of the time. She's constantly looking for common ground, where the only real common ground Ronon understands is that everyone believes in their own self interest. In Ronon's mind, she's trying to apply the rules of political intrigue among first world governents to a gang war. Ronon grew up in a gang war, watching while all the first world governments crashed and burned around him.
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Date: 2006-01-27 11:53 pm (UTC)It just feels so much like - with Weir just previously going on about planning strategies (and Ronon's apparent less than enthused reply) - he was challenging her somehow. Or at least sizing her up (not just as a woman, but a leader too). So, like foreplay, but not. Then again, maybe I'm all fangirly and paranoid because they're talking about moves in general (tee HEE)... and Ronon just isn't someone to plan on taking something he wants. He just takes it. While Weir chooses to go through (cough:hidebehind:cough) Sheppard (and all the invaluable time/resources the poor man wasted on Ronon's behalf assimilating him into the group! For shame! [/mommy voice]) instead of just. saying. it. .... which was the wrong move on her part, considering she said FAR more with her flustering than she clearly meant to otherwise. She knows it and Ronon damn well knows it. Not going all ship-biased with that either, but if Ronon really thought Weir was a totally piss-poor leader, he probably wouldn't have stayed.
Maybe he thinks Weir wastes her time jumping through far too many hoops and he doesn't understand her, but the fact she can get flustered at all... I'd like to think that endeared her to him (allbeit in a somewhat condescending, arrogant alpha male sort of way). And that you can totally file under shippy bias.
However, now that I think about it, Ronon pushing the torture of Kavanaugh was yet another kind of challenge (not necessarily a purposeful one on his part, but still a challenge). Which, truthfully, is starting to appear to me as the whole purpose of Ronon's character... he's not so much the destined boytoy for Teyla (although I could imagine them Kirking eventually), but he's there to push them (Weir, namely) closer and closer towards facing that dark part of themselves. Either for the heavy moral dilemma and/or survival as they precariously reach the edge. I'd say he's almost like Weir's Shadow in a way. So far, it's almost all Ronon pushing Weir, he's got the upper hand in the game ... but I could imagine at some point the tables are going to have to turn and Weir is going to push Ronon.
no subject
Date: 2006-01-28 03:56 am (UTC)Ronon doesn't think Weir is a bad leader. Nor does he think John is a bad soldier, nor does he think Rodney is a bad scientist. He does, however, think they're all a liiitle bit coo-coo.
And that is why he fits in so well. He's dealing with seven years of post traumatic stress disorder. He gets that often in desperate situations, being a little crazy is the thing that saves your ass. He can respect Elizabeth without needing to understand her.
I think what confuses him most about Weir is why she is trying so hard to explain herself to him when she doesn't need to.
he's not so much the destined boytoy for Teyla (although I could imagine them Kirking eventually), but he's there to push them (Weir, namely) closer and closer towards facing that dark part of themselves.
This comparison doesn't quite gel in my head. It's like you've reduced Ronon's entire presence on the show to how other characters react to him. Certainly Ronon's behavior, particularly in that episode, was influential, but Ronon is not on the show because he influences the other characters any more than the other characters are on the show because they influence him.
Or rather, *all* of the characters are on the show for how they bounce off each other, each providing fully developed and unique perspectives, each with the power to sway the others. There is a mutual respect there that I feel you are discounting.
So far, it's almost all Ronon pushing Weir, he's got the upper hand in the game.
I can't really see him caring about having the upper hand. Ronon is a follower. He doesn't like being at the top of the decision making chain.
I think you're coming at "Critical Mass" from the perspective that Weir was uncertain what she wanted, and Ronon pushed his opinion onto her.
I don't see Weir as the wishy-washy easily influenced type. Ronon might be able to fluster her in a civilian context, but as a leader, Weir is a hardass. I strongly believe that Weir wanted to punish Kavanagh. The dire situation gave her an excuse do it. Ronon gave her the means to do it. But in the end, the decision was all Weir.
From that angle, I don't think Weir needs to turn the tables on Ronon. I don't think he ever turned the tables on her in the first place. Ronon is a follower. If he was influencing Weir, it was as an enabler, not an agressor.
Which is to say, he isn't bringing out the darkness. It's already there on the surface. Ronon's just helping get rid of the guilt that accompanies it.
no subject
Date: 2006-01-28 08:33 pm (UTC)Not his entire presence (although it would serve me better I suppose to beta my own posts, I could have done without that "whole" above) and I didn't really mean to make him sound so singular, but in that he is a new character (filling the space essentially left open in Ford's absence) and a rather, perhaps, bombastic one. He could have the power in the plot to effect the characters in particular and significant ways. Also quite different from pretty much all the pre-existant body of characters, his presence - more than anyone else - does feel like it could be used as a catalyst. Yet, of course, he too is being effected by the other characters/circumstances. Then again, I suppose I do have a habit - whether for good or bad - of assigning certain functions to characters (plot-wise or as devices), particularly newer ones. And, for some reason, I have a tendency to make Ronon a darker influence in the show, maybe because this show feels darker to me this season (a lot more moral ambiguity) and he came in at the beginning of this season as a strong new presence (again, filling absentee Ford's void). Again, not that that's his only purpose (because, yes, all these characters - even the peripheral ones - have dimensions), but I could really see him fitting in that role.
There is a mutual respect there that I feel you are discounting.
I suppose I wasn't really focused too much on how the characters personally react to Ronon, but the more technical aspects of the plot. Thus I may have come off a little bit cold... I do think the characters respect each other. I didn't mean to suggest that they didn't.
I can't really see him caring about having the upper hand. Ronon is a follower.
I do think, in some respects, Ronon does indeed have the upperhand in some games. Whether he wants it or not isn't so relevant.
I think you're coming at "Critical Mass" from the perspective that Weir was uncertain what she wanted, and Ronon pushed his opinion onto her.
I don't think Weir succumb to Ronon's challenge (partly because I think by the time Ronon volunteered again, she'd already made up her mind on the subject. He was just vocalizing what she'd already decided. Something that crossed her mind in the interrogation room before Ronon first suggested it). I don't think Weir is wishy-washy, certainly not that she'd back torture just because someone pushed her into it. But, I still do think there was a challenge there. More specifically, the writers were pushing Weir's character into a darker place with the help of Ronon and his dialogue. However, ironically, Kavanaugh himself said the T-word first thus it became an open issue in Weir's - and the audience's - mind. Although you have any interrogation situation, the possibility of torture, regardless of the society, is lurking in the back of your mind... the part most people prefer not to go to, but it's still there. I'm coming at it more in a sense that Ronon's character - at the moment - seems rather significantly based on the challenge, the animal or the primal side of a man ... and thus could be utilized as a challenge by the writers. Moreso than the other characters in the show. Not so much Ronon is knowingly or actively challenging Weir (not negating it, since I do think he could be some of the time), but that he could be used as such by the writers. I guess, more accurately, I kind of see Ronon a lot of the time as that character that says and does what everyone is already thinking ... McKay tends to function in that role quite a bit too. In "Critical Mass", ditto Kavanaugh.
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Date: 2006-01-29 04:37 am (UTC)Season 2 is definitely much darker in certain respect than season 1, and I totally agree that the writers are pushing Weir's character into a darker place. However, I see Ronon as more the result of those changes than the cause of them.
In season 2 the characters have been through a war and survived it by the skin of their teeth. Weir herself, a civilian diplomat, has now been through a war making all the major military decisions. She faced the first challenge to her status since the series began when Col. Everett waltzed into her meeting room and told her everything she was doing "wrong" and how he was going to fix it all with his military tactics.
Even with Everett gone, there is now a much larger military presense on Atlantis, than there ever was in season 1.
At least part of Weir's decision to keep John on had to be the knowledge that anyone the US government would appoint would present more of a challenge to her leadership than John. Anyone else would try to turn Atlantis in the SGC and Weir didn't want that, partly for herself, but mostly for her people.
We now see Ronon in the meeting rooms whenever the main characters are making executive decisions. Before it was only Teyla, Rodney, Elizabeth and John. Civilians outnumbered military three to one and Ford was nowhere to be seen. Weir made the choice to put Ronon in that room. I'm extrapolating here, but I think she knew it would be helpful in wartime for to have another military perspective when making executive decisions. I think she also knew that that perspective couldn't come from any of the new military personnel.
I'm specifically remembering how indulgently Lorne spoke to Weir when John went missing in "Lost Boys" -- he didn't sound at all like he was taking her seriously. Of course, then she just raised her eyebrow at him and I've never seen a man backpedal so fast in my life. XD
I'd then make the supposition that Weir includes Ronon because she knows she can control him, at least to the extent that Ronon goes along with John, and John goes along with her. She chose someone who could give her the military perspective she needs without trying to get her to do things the SGC way.
Then again, I suppose I do have a habit - whether for good or bad - of assigning certain functions to characters (plot-wise or as devices), particularly newer ones. and he came in at the beginning of this season as a strong new presence (again, filling absentee Ford's void).
SGA is a character driven show. I write this way as well when it comes to my own fiction, so I find it easier to approach it from that perspective. Which is to say, I tend to look at the plots as character devices.
I appreciate your perspective -- you've made me rethink a lot of things.
Ronon definitely has a lot of darkness in him, and a certain kind of agression. I can agree he does help bring out some darker aspects of Weir. I think I can't really see him as a serious challenge to Weir or as a big influence on her because Weir knew at the beginning of season 2 that she was going to need to be more of a hardass. She surrounded herself with people who would help bring that out in her without presenting a large conflict of interest. Essentially, any challenge Ronon presents is there because Weir asked for it, moreso than because Ronon offered it.
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Date: 2006-02-01 05:56 am (UTC)Or symbolic of them? I have another habit (whether for good or bad) of seeing characters as symbols (or the symbols in them) too. If Ford was at all a representation of child-like naivete or innocence (or fallen innocence as he seems this season), Ronon is something primal or savage (about human nature)... if you stripped away the social graces (or took a people out of it's society... Ronon from Sateda, the galactic explorers from Earth, etc), what would be left behind. Again, I'm not trying to diminunise the characters in anyway (via symbols), but I suppose I'm stuck in this rut of the increased darkness in season 2 and Ronon being a new character this particular season. *sighs* I don't know why I'm so obsessed with this... maybe because it's Ronon's darkness that fascinates me so much about him. I don't know.
I'm extrapolating here, but I think she knew it would be helpful in wartime for to have another military perspective when making executive decisions.
And a military perspective from that galaxy could be quite useful. It also gives him a (militarial) purpose again, even if he and his comrades, more or less, lost (barring that straggling 300). Random, but it's possible there could be a Thalan or Phoebus (TLG) parallel (with Ronon) in here somewhere which I may not be seeing... then again, maybe that's just me straw grasping.
I'd then make the supposition that Weir includes Ronon because she knows she can control him
Or she believes she can, but that's understandable considering they've never really challenged her. Although I have to wonder what that scene may be like (a scene, granted, which likely won't ever happen) when/if it ever does occur, full tier. Either from John or Ronon.
I appreciate your perspective -- you've made me rethink a lot of things.
I do (nerdily) admit, I love discussions like this far (FAR) too much.
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Date: 2006-02-02 07:27 pm (UTC)Yes! Not quite how I'd conceptualized it, but I think that description works. The writers aren't using him as a catalyst for the darkness, but Ronon does tend to say the things the rest of them are thinking.
Random, but it's possible there could be a Thalan or Phoebus (TLG) parallel (with Ronon) in here somewhere which I may not be seeing... then again, maybe that's just me straw grasping.
I didn't think of it like that. I was more thinking about how both Thalan and Phoebus the awful extremes of John and Elizabeth. Kind of like what season 2 Ford was to season 1 Ford.
I will consider it from that angle, though. The writers do tend to carry over emotional arcs from one character to another, like Rodney's situation in "Grace Under Pressure" that was later repeated in "Tower" and then shown again in "Inferno" with Ronon and Teyla.
Or she believes she can, but that's understandable considering they've never really challenged her. Although I have to wonder what that scene may be like (a scene, granted, which likely won't ever happen) when/if it ever does occur, full tier. Either from John or Ronon.
I think John really respects her and believes in her and they've really built up a good working relationship, so it's hard to imagine her wanting ot do something so out of hand in John's eyes that he would outright challenge her.
Ronon is more of a question mark. He is incredibly loyal to John, which is why Elizabeth trusts him, but I can imagine him getting *too* loyal in some regard. I like the idea of his arc being tied in with Elizabeth. He jumps to do something she suggests, only this time Kavanagh actually gets tortured, so to speak.
I don't really see a big threat to her authority coming from the inside, so to speak. Ronon does really consider the Atlanteans his people now. They all really respect each other and have all been working together for a year or more in very extreme situations.
Also, in that Elizabeth doesn't really deal to challenges to hear authority the way other sci-fi leaders typically do. In, say, BSG you get the big challenge that the leader shoots down directly, with mixed results. Elizabeth tends more to see those kind of challenges coming, and then rework her situation to minimize their impact, like she did with Everett and the SGC at the beginning of season 2. I think those *were* really serious threats to her authority, and she dealt with most of them off screen. Facing a sudden internal challenge head on doesn't really seem to be Elizabeth's style, or the writers' style in regards to Elizabeth. A big problem might be dealt with in smaller increments over the stretch of half a season. It won't ever look like the huge problem it is to the naked eye of the viewer.
I can definitely see Elizabeth making a grand authoritative blunder, though her punishment won't necessarily be doled out by her own people at all.
I do (nerdily) admit, I love discussions like this far (FAR) too much.
We're in fandom. We're *encouraged* to geek out about these things. No need for shame ever.
:)
no subject
Date: 2006-02-03 04:19 am (UTC)With the Thalan (or Phoebus) thing, my mind was kind of lingering on the two of them being soldiers in the last remnants of a long distance (disastrous) war. Particularly Phoebus and Teyla's interaction regarding that war being long over, but not for P (...as long as Thalan was still alive). Ronon was a soldier and one of the last survivors of the decimated Sateda (barring that other 300). Of course, like Thalan to Phoebus (vice versa), Ronon's (or humans') nemesis is still alive (the Wraith) and while they are... he'll (they'll) fight them as vehemently as T and P fought each other (and it won't be over until either or both are dead). Of course, there certainly doesn't need to be any parallel (with T&P) for that to be the case for Ronon. However, it just seems very... symmetrical to me (and anything I do have a weakness for, it's story symmetry and metaphors). Different, but equal. Both T & P possessing hosts to desperately continue their old war, but yet there's also the resounding yin-yang quality. Husband and wife, man and woman. Shep the soldier and Weir the diplomat. Ronon (Humans) and Wraith. Intellect (or emotion) vs instinct. Man vs. Animal (Bug)... which is a battle that seems to rage within Ronon himself (as well as the Wraith or so the Beckett retrovirus story arc would seem to tell us... human DNA evolved with the Iratus Bug. Does one dominate the other? Are they mutually exclusive?). I could go on, but I'm afraid if I do I could churn out a novel.
Ronon is more of a question mark. He is incredibly loyal to John, which is why Elizabeth trusts him, but I can imagine him getting *too* loyal in some regard. I like the idea of his arc being tied in with Elizabeth. He jumps to do something she suggests, only this time Kavanagh actually gets tortured, so to speak
Although speaking of Kavanaugh's (almost-)torture and what you mentioned earlier about (emotional) story arcs carrying over from one character to another... I'm left concerned regarding what may happen to Ronon in perhaps the not-so-distant future in his particular story arc (I won't mention anything specific about the s2 finale since I don't know if you've seen it yet, but if you have, you probably know what I'm referring).
I can definitely see Elizabeth making a grand authoritative blunder, though her punishment won't necessarily be doled out by her own people at all.
Although it's tragic too... I don't always see things happening so much to Weir herself either, per se. It could be her authority could be challenged in a significant way we have yet to see (I'm still wondering about Kavanaugh's encrypted messages exchanging. Kavanaugh is a miserable piss-ant, but methinks we haven't heard the last of him by any stretch) as I do about those whose lives she feels she's responsible for. Which would, of course, hurt her the most. Others have made this comparison before, but she really is so much like the Queen trapped in her Hive... always protected, but it's the drones around her that make the heaviest sacrifices. Of course, unlike the seemingly emotionless Wraith, she feels each and every loss. However, that does lead to more interesting thoughts regarding Michael and his perspective, but again, I'm afraid to go there.
We're in fandom. We're *encouraged* to geek out about these things. No need for shame ever.
I'm glad my abysimally geeky insanity hasn't been utterly frightening. ;)